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	<title>Comments on: Transliterating Shiki</title>
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	<link>http://neojaponisme.com/2009/02/10/transliterating-shiki/</link>
	<description>a web journal on Japan and elsewhere</description>
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		<title>By: Matt TREYVAUD</title>
		<link>http://neojaponisme.com/2009/02/10/transliterating-shiki/comment-page-1/#comment-22676</link>
		<dc:creator>Matt TREYVAUD</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 16 Feb 2009 15:40:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://neojaponisme.com/2009/02/10/transliterating-shiki/#comment-22676</guid>
		<description>H&#039;m, interesting. For me, &quot;Lo!&quot; and &quot;Alas!&quot; are tied up with Biblical (and in the latter case Classical) language, so the main problem with using either would be that they immediately make the mood much grander and more solemn than most haiku aim for.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>H&#8217;m, interesting. For me, &#8220;Lo!&#8221; and &#8220;Alas!&#8221; are tied up with Biblical (and in the latter case Classical) language, so the main problem with using either would be that they immediately make the mood much grander and more solemn than most haiku aim for.</p>
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		<title>By: Roy Berman</title>
		<link>http://neojaponisme.com/2009/02/10/transliterating-shiki/comment-page-1/#comment-22669</link>
		<dc:creator>Roy Berman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 16 Feb 2009 02:36:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://neojaponisme.com/2009/02/10/transliterating-shiki/#comment-22669</guid>
		<description>I was thinking more of English translations of classical poetry in general than any particular work, or even of Japanese poetry at all. I studied a bit of Japanese poetry in college, but not in any great detail and all those books are back home, far far away right now.

&quot;I’ll grant you misleading, but I don’t think it could ever be as jarring. I never did get used to Isaacson’s unitalicized “ya”. &quot;
No, certainly not as jarring. I say misleading because the Lo! type language is usually an attempt to replicate the tone of written poetry based on oral literature, and I don&#039;t think that&#039;s very appropriate for highly stylized language of something like haiku.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I was thinking more of English translations of classical poetry in general than any particular work, or even of Japanese poetry at all. I studied a bit of Japanese poetry in college, but not in any great detail and all those books are back home, far far away right now.</p>
<p>&#8220;I’ll grant you misleading, but I don’t think it could ever be as jarring. I never did get used to Isaacson’s unitalicized “ya”. &#8221;<br />
No, certainly not as jarring. I say misleading because the Lo! type language is usually an attempt to replicate the tone of written poetry based on oral literature, and I don&#8217;t think that&#8217;s very appropriate for highly stylized language of something like haiku.</p>
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		<title>By: nnyhav</title>
		<link>http://neojaponisme.com/2009/02/10/transliterating-shiki/comment-page-1/#comment-22668</link>
		<dc:creator>nnyhav</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 16 Feb 2009 02:15:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://neojaponisme.com/2009/02/10/transliterating-shiki/#comment-22668</guid>
		<description>emoticons</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>emoticons</p>
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		<title>By: Matt TREYVAUD</title>
		<link>http://neojaponisme.com/2009/02/10/transliterating-shiki/comment-page-1/#comment-22651</link>
		<dc:creator>Matt TREYVAUD</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 14 Feb 2009 23:51:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://neojaponisme.com/2009/02/10/transliterating-shiki/#comment-22651</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;Did this book include the original Japanese next to Isaacson’s translation?&lt;/i&gt;

Nope. I agree with LH and Xee on this one though -- lots of people interested in haiku have beginner-to-medium level Japanese, so better there than not. (Of course, the ideal edition has Japanese orthography, romaji, several translations by different authors, detailed and thoughtful notes, a wet bar, and a solid gold robot pony. Everything else is just an imperfect shadow of this idea.)

&lt;i&gt;TThis is an interesting approach, and I’m sure one that has been used many times in translating such poetry. In fact, I know it has. But the problem is that these English interjections have their own nuances and poetic uses, and their use as a substitute for Japanese particles could be just as jarring (or at least misleading) to a reader highly familiar with archaic English poetry.&lt;/i&gt;

I&#039;ll grant you misleading, but I don&#039;t think it could ever be as jarring. I never did get used to Isaacson&#039;s unitalicized &quot;ya&quot;. 

By the way, I&#039;ve only ever seen the &quot;Lo!&quot; approach used in very old approaches to tanka/haiku, like William Porter&#039;s Hyakunin Isshu. You seem to have something specific in mind too -- do you know of any more recent attempts in this vein?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>Did this book include the original Japanese next to Isaacson’s translation?</i></p>
<p>Nope. I agree with LH and Xee on this one though &#8212; lots of people interested in haiku have beginner-to-medium level Japanese, so better there than not. (Of course, the ideal edition has Japanese orthography, romaji, several translations by different authors, detailed and thoughtful notes, a wet bar, and a solid gold robot pony. Everything else is just an imperfect shadow of this idea.)</p>
<p><i>TThis is an interesting approach, and I’m sure one that has been used many times in translating such poetry. In fact, I know it has. But the problem is that these English interjections have their own nuances and poetic uses, and their use as a substitute for Japanese particles could be just as jarring (or at least misleading) to a reader highly familiar with archaic English poetry.</i></p>
<p>I&#8217;ll grant you misleading, but I don&#8217;t think it could ever be as jarring. I never did get used to Isaacson&#8217;s unitalicized &#8220;ya&#8221;. </p>
<p>By the way, I&#8217;ve only ever seen the &#8220;Lo!&#8221; approach used in very old approaches to tanka/haiku, like William Porter&#8217;s Hyakunin Isshu. You seem to have something specific in mind too &#8212; do you know of any more recent attempts in this vein?</p>
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		<title>By: xee</title>
		<link>http://neojaponisme.com/2009/02/10/transliterating-shiki/comment-page-1/#comment-22646</link>
		<dc:creator>xee</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 14 Feb 2009 15:14:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://neojaponisme.com/2009/02/10/transliterating-shiki/#comment-22646</guid>
		<description>(or maybe i have them the wrong way round? oh w/evs i am sure youse know what i mean.)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>(or maybe i have them the wrong way round? oh w/evs i am sure youse know what i mean.)</p>
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		<title>By: xee</title>
		<link>http://neojaponisme.com/2009/02/10/transliterating-shiki/comment-page-1/#comment-22645</link>
		<dc:creator>xee</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 14 Feb 2009 15:12:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://neojaponisme.com/2009/02/10/transliterating-shiki/#comment-22645</guid>
		<description>(or indeed any other taikei! though istr the nippon gakujutsu whatnot only has two parts to the page and therefore lacks that pleasing balance.)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>(or indeed any other taikei! though istr the nippon gakujutsu whatnot only has two parts to the page and therefore lacks that pleasing balance.)</p>
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		<title>By: xee</title>
		<link>http://neojaponisme.com/2009/02/10/transliterating-shiki/comment-page-1/#comment-22644</link>
		<dc:creator>xee</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 14 Feb 2009 15:04:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://neojaponisme.com/2009/02/10/transliterating-shiki/#comment-22644</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt; the romaji isn’t going to be of much use to non-Japanese readers&lt;/i&gt;

perhaps the rōmaji is also there so you can try and work out what it sounds like even if you don&#039;t speak japanese? poetry being sound as well as lexical meaning. 
That said, my editions of translated greek and russian poetry are either all-english or bilingual: they do assume you are either familiar with the script or don&#039;t care about the original sound. 

my ideal for translations of japanese poetry, i decided a while back, would be something rather like the iwanami nihon koten bungaku taikei, with the page in three parts (e.g., orig/translation/notes), so there&#039;s a continuous section for notes, which for me is somehow easier to deal with than individual footnotes.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i> the romaji isn’t going to be of much use to non-Japanese readers</i></p>
<p>perhaps the rōmaji is also there so you can try and work out what it sounds like even if you don&#8217;t speak japanese? poetry being sound as well as lexical meaning.<br />
That said, my editions of translated greek and russian poetry are either all-english or bilingual: they do assume you are either familiar with the script or don&#8217;t care about the original sound. </p>
<p>my ideal for translations of japanese poetry, i decided a while back, would be something rather like the iwanami nihon koten bungaku taikei, with the page in three parts (e.g., orig/translation/notes), so there&#8217;s a continuous section for notes, which for me is somehow easier to deal with than individual footnotes.</p>
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		<title>By: language hat</title>
		<link>http://neojaponisme.com/2009/02/10/transliterating-shiki/comment-page-1/#comment-22643</link>
		<dc:creator>language hat</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 14 Feb 2009 14:32:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://neojaponisme.com/2009/02/10/transliterating-shiki/#comment-22643</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;Which was an odd choice really, because the romaji isn’t going to be of much use to non-Japanese readers except for giving a way for them to count the syllables and say to themselves “so there ARE seven!” while at the same time not giving Japanese readers an authentic presentation.&lt;/i&gt;

But Japanese readers don&#039;t need the translations at all and probably won&#039;t be reading the book, whereas I suspect there are a lot of English-speaking readers, like me, who have enough of a smattering of Japanese to make some use of the romaji but to whom kanji would be nothing but a decorative element.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>Which was an odd choice really, because the romaji isn’t going to be of much use to non-Japanese readers except for giving a way for them to count the syllables and say to themselves “so there ARE seven!” while at the same time not giving Japanese readers an authentic presentation.</i></p>
<p>But Japanese readers don&#8217;t need the translations at all and probably won&#8217;t be reading the book, whereas I suspect there are a lot of English-speaking readers, like me, who have enough of a smattering of Japanese to make some use of the romaji but to whom kanji would be nothing but a decorative element.</p>
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		<title>By: Roy Berman</title>
		<link>http://neojaponisme.com/2009/02/10/transliterating-shiki/comment-page-1/#comment-22642</link>
		<dc:creator>Roy Berman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 14 Feb 2009 14:18:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://neojaponisme.com/2009/02/10/transliterating-shiki/#comment-22642</guid>
		<description>Did this book include the original Japanese next to Isaacson&#039;s translation? Almost all of the Japanese poetry I ever got in class in the US had both an English translation and the Japanese rendered as romaji. Which was an odd choice really, because the romaji isn&#039;t going to be of much use to non-Japanese readers except for giving a way for them to count the syllables and say to themselves &quot;so there ARE seven!&quot; while at the same time not giving Japanese readers an authentic presentation.

&quot;Archaic English interjections — “Lo!” “Alas!” “O!” — would arguably have gotten Isaacson much closer to the effect he claims to be seeking.&quot;

This is an interesting approach, and I&#039;m sure one that has been used many times in translating such poetry. In fact, I know it has. But the problem is that these English interjections have their own nuances and poetic uses, and their use as a substitute for Japanese particles could be just as jarring (or at least misleading) to a reader highly familiar with archaic English poetry.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Did this book include the original Japanese next to Isaacson&#8217;s translation? Almost all of the Japanese poetry I ever got in class in the US had both an English translation and the Japanese rendered as romaji. Which was an odd choice really, because the romaji isn&#8217;t going to be of much use to non-Japanese readers except for giving a way for them to count the syllables and say to themselves &#8220;so there ARE seven!&#8221; while at the same time not giving Japanese readers an authentic presentation.</p>
<p>&#8220;Archaic English interjections — “Lo!” “Alas!” “O!” — would arguably have gotten Isaacson much closer to the effect he claims to be seeking.&#8221;</p>
<p>This is an interesting approach, and I&#8217;m sure one that has been used many times in translating such poetry. In fact, I know it has. But the problem is that these English interjections have their own nuances and poetic uses, and their use as a substitute for Japanese particles could be just as jarring (or at least misleading) to a reader highly familiar with archaic English poetry.</p>
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		<title>By: Matt TREYVAUD</title>
		<link>http://neojaponisme.com/2009/02/10/transliterating-shiki/comment-page-1/#comment-22632</link>
		<dc:creator>Matt TREYVAUD</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 13 Feb 2009 23:14:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://neojaponisme.com/2009/02/10/transliterating-shiki/#comment-22632</guid>
		<description>The only charitable explanation I can think of for the lack of originals in _Peonies Kana_ is that Isaacson&#039;s publisher said &quot;OK, we have 88 pages, do you want 150 poems with originals or 300 poems in translation only?&quot; (It was the early 70s, after all.)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The only charitable explanation I can think of for the lack of originals in _Peonies Kana_ is that Isaacson&#8217;s publisher said &#8220;OK, we have 88 pages, do you want 150 poems with originals or 300 poems in translation only?&#8221; (It was the early 70s, after all.)</p>
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